DIS GISELLE

Disability and Gender in Dis Giselle: A Cultural Model of Disability

Transcript of the conversation between Milesa Milinković and Saša Asentić

Novi Sad, 09.04.2015

Milesa Milinković is a feminist disabled researcher and cultural worker, based in Novi Sad, Serbia, whose work is rooted in feminist disability theory. As the Director of the International Film Festival "Seize the Film" (Uhvati film) and a Master of Gender Studies, she focuses on the intersectional analysis of media representation and the social positioning of the body. Milinković bridges the gap between academic theory and cultural practice, offering critical insights into how art and media shape our understanding of identity, accessibility, and human rights.

 

Sasa Asentić: Welcome! Earlier today, Milesa and I were texting while we were each making something to eat, she in her home, and I in the apartment where I’m staying. And at one moment Milesa said: “Do you know that song by Massimo Savić? ‘A Small Circle of Great People’?” I said: “Send it to me so we can listen to it while we cook.” And honestly, this moment here feels exactly like that song, a small circle of great people. And it really matters that we stay together in these small circles of ours, circles that have survived and held on for decades now. Together we grow, and age, and collect shared experiences, and we keep each other close. I imagined today’s conversation as one of those small circles too, the circle of all of us who’ve worked together, stood side by side, and collaborated for so many years. And all of this because of the performances we created Giselle and Dis–Giselle. Everyone here has watched them, taken part in them, or contributed to them in different ways. And we all know that these performances were created from your ideas, Jelena, right?

Jelena Stefanoska (from the audience): Yes.

Saša Asentić: And what mattered to us while working was your wish to explore the similarities and differences between Giselle’s life and your own. You created your own version. I remember at the beginning you said you wanted to make your ‘Giselle’ in contemporary dance.

Jelena Stefanoska: Yes.

Saša Asentić: There is already a classical ballet version, the one you saw at the Serbian National Theatre, right? But you wanted a new version, in contemporary dance. You wanted it to be your Giselle. As you said: “My Giselle.”

Jelena Stefanoska: My Giselle.

Saša Asentić: Exactly. And both her story, and yours, deal with a woman’s life inside a society ruled by strict rules that men with power have set. A society shaped to fit men. And the whole story is really about how that society stops her from living a dignified and happy life. You highlighted Giselle’s qualities, her beauty, honesty, loyalty, her ability to forgive… I remember you talked about all of that. The whole last part of the performance revolves around those ideas. And you also brought joy and the meaning of living onto the stage. And that connection with nature…

Jelena Stefanoska: Yes.

Saša Asentić: …which then shifts into something sadder, which is also interesting and something we can talk about today. And what you brought very strongly to the stage was your desire and passion to express yourself, as a person and as an artist. All of that is woven into your ‘Giselle’ pieces.

Jelena Stefanoska: Yes.

Saša Asentić: Then I thought, since we’ve known Milesa for years, how great it would be to invite her too, so she could share her perspective on the performances, especially because she works on women’s rights. Milesa fights for the rights of women, especially women with disabilities, and that’s something I really wanted us to talk about today. Because you, Jelena, as a woman and an artist with Down syndrome, created these works. You gave the initial ideas, and we built the performances together. And that is incredibly important. So I invited Milesa to this conversation, to hear how she sees our work.

I imagined it not as a big public event, especially considering everything happening in our society right now, but as a small circle, like we said. A conversation where we can hear from Milesa… because why was that important to me? With all the work we invested in Giselle, I think Jelena’s ideas were essential and deeply inspiring for all of us in choreography, in writing, in video work, in both versions of the show. And what interests me is that people talk about these performances, recognize their importance. And because of everything you do, Milesa, it felt important to expand the conversation from your angle too. And to talk about Jelena as an artist with Down syndrome who is unique not only at home but internationally. And to support her work in that way as well.

Milesa Milinković: Thank you so much for the invitation and for trusting me to reflect on these two performances and offer some of my insights. What struck me is that the performance is made in such a way that each of us can read into it what our own filter allows. And my filter is feminist disability theory. So, I noticed meanings that maybe… well, when you all started creating the work, maybe there wasn’t an intention to make it feminist, but from my perspective there are so many elements that feminist disability theory deals with…

Saša Asentić: When we were preparing for this talk, Milesa pointed out the beginning of the performance, with the little images you cut out from magazines, Jelena. So we decided to watch that opening again, just to remind ourselves and set the mood. This is the beginning of the piece you named My Giselle. It’s a great entry point for what Milesa just mentioned. This is the recording from the Berlin performance, so the subtitles are in German and English. Here, Jelena wrote “My Giselle” in her own handwriting… We performed Giselle and Dis–Giselle in Novi Sad, Belgrade, and Berlin.

(Video excerpt) 

Saša Asentić: So that was the first scene, My Giselle, from the Giselle / Žizela performance.

Milesa Milinković: I watched all this on my laptop, and now some of the subtitles really jumped out at me… For example, I noticed the German ones: “We are the right woman for you” … but I never noticed the Serbian ones before. Now I see how meaningful they actually are…

Saša Asentić: Yes, exactly.

Milesa Milinković: ...and not only images of women and those desirable bodies, that imposed beauty. What is beauty? What is allowed to be shown in the media, in fashion magazines. This is a space that is actually completely closed off to women with disabilities. I’m speaking now about your performance, when Jelena enters with her body... when she shows her body... completely without restraint... she expresses her sexuality, her sensuality. And she literally breaks in, writes herself into those spaces that are absolutely forbidden to women with disabilities. Or rather, now that I think of it, that space is open to women with disabilities only to the extent that they look close enough to that (imposed ideal of beauty) ... And if the disability deviates more from those enforced beauty standards, then that space is essentially closed. What I found amazing was that... complete taking of control; you’re not giving me this space, I don’t exist in it, but I’m taking it. And that is something that, from a feminist point of view, women constantly fight for, to gain freedom, to gain space. So, for me, this scene was completely that moment, yes, that’s it! If we don’t assert ourselves... Actually, when a person with a disability radiates from within… the way we want to be seen… then people slowly start perceiving us that way. Maybe not instantly, but the moment we have a positive relationship with our own bodies, that somehow reflects onto others. Again, in the audio version she says, “I am famous, I am beautiful.” That’s it. If you see yourself like that, then in the end, or in the beginning, the person watching you will reflect that image of yourself back to you. I think that’s a powerful message of this performance.

Saša Asentić: Jelena, do you remember… when I asked you about the scene we just watched, the one Milesa is talking about, what you think of it, how you experience it, you said that you are not in the newspapers, but you exist only in your performance.

Jelena Stefanoska: In my performance.

Saša Asentić: …and that you are also famous…

Jelena Stefanoska: …that I’m a famous person.

Saša Asentić: Yes. So, what you’re saying, Milesa, about taking space, somehow art… somehow art, in this case dance, becomes even more important in claiming that space. The space where new images and new perceptions can be formed, the ones you’re talking about. Because the media, and popular culture in general, are so discriminatory towards everything that doesn’t fit those imposed standards of beauty or bodily appearance. In that sense, both of these performances are very important. Especially when we worked on the second one, the sound performance, where we rely on listening. It was important to move away from only the visual, the image. To see how we can question all of that through the sound channel of communication, which then invites imagining and creating images that are not limited to the visual channel alone.

Milesa Milinković: It’s interesting… You say there’s no “I’m a pretty girl, I’m famous.” I was convinced it was there. It blended together for me…

Saša Asentić: ...it’s in the sound version of the performance.

Milesa Milinković: Yes, it’s in the sound version. And somehow it stayed with me as if it were part of this version too. I probably connected the two because of her performance, because of everything… She challenges the stereotype that women with disabilities cannot be beautiful, that such bodies are not desirable, that they cannot be independent… And what I find interesting is that this performance is a reconstruction of Giselle, not a representation. Meaning, a group of people with disabilities, we talked about this earlier, repeat and try to fit in… to perform in the way people without disabilities perform it… It’s a complete breaking apart and reconstruction… and that “My Giselle”, Jelena’s view of Giselle. What is great in this story is that Giselle is essentially a story about love. Love is universal. Except that love, and romantic relationships, are something people don’t really expect from persons with disabilities. Especially from persons with intellectual disabilities, that’s an additional stigma. In this story there is a link between the experiences of a woman without a disability, Giselle, and Jelena as a woman with a disability. What I also found interesting is the synergy: we have one male body without a disability and one female body with a disability. I was thinking… that art is a space where such things can be shown and they won’t provoke as much judgment as in private life. In private life, when you see a woman with a disability and a man without a disability, people ask, “Is that your brother, or a friend…” But when we find ourselves in an artistic setting, we grasp it more easily, accept it more easily…. And also, in the original Giselle, she’s a village girl and he’s a prince, there is also a difference between them… Here we have the difference between abled-bodied and disabled…

Saša Asentić: Yes, although… in Giselle it’s presented only as a class difference, and both Albert and Giselle are abled-bodied. What’s also important in what you’re saying is that we understand how these identity-categories often overlap or intersect, disability, gender, class… Contemporary artistic forms, in this case dance, raise those questions that classical forms, like ballet, tend to exclude. Which shows the complexity of these relationships.

Milesa Milinković: Yes. For example, in the song that repeats “I will be famous” … She is famous, in the song, not because of who she is, but because of her relationships with men. And generally, we have this situation… a woman is always someone’s woman. She is never an independent doctor, an independent artist; she is someone’s wife. She is the famous Slađa from Đogani… But in this performance, even though you appear, Jelena is… the star of the show. You are there, Saša, just… I’m sorry, maybe that wasn’t the idea… but in my view you’re there only to support her, to maybe balance things a little, to bring some dichotomy… but you serve her performance, like music serves the performance, like part of the set. She occupied that space so fully that everything else faded into the background.

Saša Asentić: Yes, what you’re saying is interesting, because during the working process, Jelena was very clear and strong with her suggestions, her wishes. Also, with her choices of music, images, costumes, etc. That dominated, and that was important to us, to create conditions in which the work could happen exactly in that way, and in which Jelena’s proposals and ideas would lead, and we would follow. And the way you talk about that relationship, I think that’s interesting, because on the dramaturgical level, and then the aesthetic level, everything is in relation to Jelena. It’s not that Jelena is defined by her relationship to someone or something else, so that she gains meaning or an image through that. It’s the opposite. Everything exists in relation to her.

Milesa Milinković: Yes. What you said is interesting because… when we analyse art, the presence of persons with disabilities in film, in literature… A person with a disability always appears in order to create some meaning for the abled-bodied person, to show that the abled-bodied person is humane, brave, good… Or to display some technological advancement, like in Avatar… But here, Jelena is simply there. At university, in philosophy classes, I found that concept fascinating… that something can be ‘a thing in itself’. Jelena is ‘in herself’ here. She simply exists. Her disability actually carries no… except that we notice it. We know it’s there, but essentially… it doesn’t matter. Except until that moment when she says: “Move away from him… I want him. I chose him… You can’t choose whoever you want.” That really struck me, because unfortunately, this is a truth that women with disabilities experience, probably also women with intellectual disabilities… Their right to choose is often denied, especially the right to choose a partner. But because I know the background and the concept, and because I know the experiences of women with disabilities, I connected it with that. Yet in essence, maybe women without disabilities have also been in situations where their right to choose was questioned, so they can identify with that… For me, as a feminist with a disability, I immediately placed it in that category… I consciously watched from that perspective, and experienced it that way. Both as a woman with a disability and as a theorist, a feminist and activist… There is a deep ‘statement’ here, I don’t know how to say it properly in Serbian now, that political expression, even if that wasn’t the intention… According to feminism, the personal is political. And then this whole experience, this entire performance, is deeply political.

Saša Asentić: I agree. As Jelena’s friend and colleague, we’ve known each other since the very beginning, since we met in 1999… From that relationship and familiarity, Jelena’s statement that she wants to create her own version of Giselle is already a strong position, a desire, and in that sense it is political. Political in the sense of changing a state of things, changing relationships, changing roles in society. Political action as transformation. And that statement, that she wants to make her version of Giselle, and when she says “This is my Giselle,” is a very powerful artistic and political statement. I recognized it as such… I see my role and mission as trying to create the conditions that support that statement, so that it can act. So that it doesn’t remain just a quiet wish of a woman with Down syndrome somewhere in a private space. Instead, we pull that wish out of the private and marginalized sphere, which are not necessarily the same thing, but from a critical feminist perspective we see how they are connected. Especially knowing that this statement comes from a woman with Down syndrome. So, I believe it is very important to bring that statement into the social sphere, into relations between individuals in society, and then into the public. Or even, when the public sphere does not exist, as when we were expelled from the Serbian National Theatre, a public cultural institution where we worked and could show our work, then we looked for other spaces. And those spaces became other public institutions, like the Gallery of Matica Srpska where we are now. But… there is also the question of what happens when there is no public space at all. How do we create the public then? Where does it manifest? Even here today, although this event is not open to the public and had no public call, the fact that we gathered and the fact that we are speaking about these issues is itself a form of creating a public… in relation to these topics and these positions. And by doing so, we confirm the political nature of this action. Because outside of this situation, it’s very rare in society to encounter a space in which we are present exactly as we are, with all our capacities, desires, experiences, etc. And we are here because of Jelena’s idea in relation to dance. Very interesting.

Milesa Milinković: While listening to you now, and after our preparation talk yesterday, I was thinking about positions of power. Whether space is given to us, persons with disabilities, or whether we claim it. And whether we can even claim it… because we do not have the power. The power is always… somewhere else. When we talk about this situation, about how Giselle came into being, you were the one who had power at that moment. Jelena, besides her potential… doesn’t stand there with power. The power of persons with disabilities has limits. If there is no ally who redistributes power, who transfers part of their power and says, “I’m giving this up” … This could have become entirely your vision; she could have been fully instrumentalized to carry out what you imagined. The value of this work lies precisely in the fact that you and your colleagues stepped back, that you said, “Now we follow you.” This is something truly extraordinary. There must be some redistribution of power for women with disabilities to go further in claiming space… Claiming this space could not have happened without that alliance, without your readiness to say: “I am giving up my power. Jelena, now it’s in your hands.” Not entirely, but, well… I’m here only to support.

Saša Asentić: This is indeed part of our mission in Per.Art. For example, right now, you and I are having this conversation, and I occasionally turn to Jelena... But in the performances Žizela / Giselle and Dis Giselle, as well as in our other works, we always make a point of naming everyone precisely and explaining the way each person took part in the process. Because it’s always a large group of people who actually carry that whole model, who recognize themselves in the mission that Per.Art has. And that mission is tied to how we redistribute power and how we take on responsibilities and tasks so that we can... bring about the changes I explained earlier. So that those changes become possible. Otherwise, they will always remain blocked, pushed aside, perhaps recognized as potential, but nothing beyond that. That is what we try to do in our work: to act there, and to change things there.

Milesa Milinković: That definitely comes through in this performance. Before we started this conversation, we were talking about how in some organizations, programs, or projects that have their own ideas, they expect some organization to go pick a handful of disabled people, so they can ‘do’ their project... And we also talked about whether something is truly a disability-led project. That’s the real value of your work. On one level, in one phase, it is completely disability-led, and Jelena is leading the whole story. And then you come in, and everyone else... and the synergy of all that is striking. And the audio description, which is... For me, the live experience was phenomenal... and I hadn’t seen the dance performance Žizela / Giselle live, only the recording. That’s when I realized how accessibility changes the aesthetics of art, and I thought: if something like this can be done, and if a new work can emerge from it... because it’s not a literal description of the show... it’s actually a new work that has grown out of it... And then I think, my God, all other artistic practices that exclude accessibility are actually ableist practices.

Saša Asentić: Yes.

Milesa Milinković: And that’s something no one in Serbia really does... And God forbid I talk about it publicly, people would probably... call me radical. The moment I mention accessibility, I get messages saying I’m being aggressive. But... we really need to start saying openly that this is an ableist practice, a discriminatory practice. And let’s change it. Why wouldn’t we? Art has changed throughout history anyway, styles have changed, everything has changed, so why wouldn’t we... change things so that art becomes universal? Accessible to everyone. And still without losing any quality.

Saša Asentić: Exactly. For me, in this research I’m doing and in my work with Per.Art, one of the most important questions is: How can we make the art we create accessible? In this case, in relation to different disabilities. But done in a way... Take Dis Giselle, for example. We made it to be listened to, primarily so that blind and visually impaired people could experience Jelena’s Giselle, Jelena’s dance, Jelena’s artistic experience, her ideas about dance, choreography, and the whole story of Giselle. In that sense, that’s exactly the new aesthetic that emerges from accessibility. But accessibility as I understand it, as a basic material condition of the work that is present from the start. Not something you tack on at the end. Which is also important, of course. Here we are now in a gallery. We can’t go back and change this painting, or ask the artist to make... Even if we did, the artist would have to create a completely new work if they wanted to think about how a blind person might experience this. They’d have to create a whole new piece. But what we can do is add a description to the painting. Which is also very important, because it allows that artwork to be experienced by those for whom it’s otherwise inaccessible. And I think exactly in that direction you’re talking about, changing the art world and artistic practice itself, accessibility has enormous potential.

Milesa Milinković: Especially if we don’t treat it strictly... When you told me it was audio described, I imagined what we do, audio-described films for the festival... I thought it was something like that. But then I realized the audio description was incorporated into the piece, that it was a whole new element...

Saša Asentić: Yes, audio description as an artistic method, not just as...

Milesa Milinković: ...a mechanism for accommodation.

Saša Asentić: Exactly, not just a tool for adaptation or accessibility.

Milesa Milinković: I have to admit... When I listened to it live, I didn’t really focus on the content of the piece or on some details I later noticed when we agreed to do this conversation. I was mostly listening with amazement... at how it can even be done... so I didn’t notice certain things. Later, when listening again, I noticed something we mentioned earlier, I didn’t even remember that the line wasn’t “I am a pretty girl.” Because there’s a pause in her statement... Sorry I’m talking to him the whole time (she turns to Jelena) ... “I am pretty, a girl.” So, I hear two things there: “I am pretty,” and “I am a girl”, two identities. And that whole story about identity is so important to me. Sorry, I keep returning to these forms...

Saša Asentić: Go ahead.

Milesa Milinković: She’s actually taking control of her own identity. I don’t think the audio description ever once says “I am a woman with Down syndrome,” which is also very important. At the festival, for example, we ask Violeta, who was our consultant, that if there’s a person with Down syndrome in the film, they should say it. Because the festival is about disability, and disability matters. It has happened that blind audience members didn’t get enough information to understand that the main character is disabled, and that the whole story revolves around a disabled person.
But here in the performance it’s completely irrelevant... This is simply who Jelena is. That shift... how everything turns around, from her at the beginning saying she wants to be famous, covered in sparkles... and then how she changes, until she says she grows into a sad nature, merges with nature, and becomes nature. Nature is a symbol for everything, for life, for something divine, and... the English word pops in my head for some reason...

Saša Asentić: Say it.

Milesa Milinković: Reshape . Transformation.

Saša Asentić: Transformation.

Milesa Milinković: Yes, transformation. I’m not sure why... That transformation from the superficial “I want to be famous” to completely merging with nature at the end. These are new representations, new ways of connecting with a diverse audience. And I also found it interesting that the subtitles in the performance were in German, English, and Serbian. That’s another layer of accessibility and connection. I found that really interesting. The choice of songs, too... We talked about it. Giselle is a story about a woman who isn’t suitable for someone... “I’ll be famous” in the song, she’s a woman who isn’t enough on her own... Those folk songs come from a patriarchal frame. And then we have another story entirely; the opposite, she’s at the center, a woman who... how should I put it... who defies. A disabled woman standing there, taking space, defying patriarchy. That structure in which a woman is supposed to be beautiful, perfect, ‘for someone’. Someone’s property. Or if she isn’t rich enough, she can’t belong to someone. She must forgive, like Giselle, she must erase herself. And on the other side, a completely different vision of everything...

Saša Asentić: Maybe just to go back to something you said, because you mentioned a lot of interesting things. Let me return to the part about descriptions, about audio description, and the importance for blind and visually impaired people to know who the character is, who the actor or protagonist is. We solved that by including it in our introduction. When Jelena and I introduce ourselves and address the audience before they begin listening to Dis Giselle, we say who we are. And we say that Jelena is one of the most important dance artists with Down syndrome. And we say a few more things about her and her work. That’s how we include that information. But when the sound performance begins, and when Jelena speaks her descriptions, we talked a lot about this, because we wanted Jelena to decide how she wants to describe herself. And exactly what you’re talking about means that she is the one shaping the image, and in this case, she’s also creating the description, and in that sense... maybe another word would fit better... she controls the image she creates of herself.

Milesa Milinković: And the same thing happens in the visual performance. Her movement and everything she says is also control, just like I said earlier. You simply watch an artist moving through space, speaking... where that usual ‘disability narrative’ doesn’t appear. Of course, on stage we see that Jelena is a woman with Down syndrome...

Saša Asentić: ...but she is shaping that new image...

Milesa Milinković: ...she is the one shaping it.

Saša Asentić: And she reshapes the performance, or rather the audience’s assumptions and expectations.

Milesa Milinković: Yes.

Saša Asentić: So in the stage performance, through Jelena’s live dancing, and in the audio piece through her descriptions, that image shifts. She shapes it, and as a result the audience’s image is reshaped as well...

Milesa Milinković: Yes.

Saša Asentić: ...if they came in with a different image or with prejudice.

Milesa Milinković: Yes, that’s what I said at the beginning... But again, it goes back to how Jelena sees herself. Which is wonderful, because if she sees herself as a pretty girl, she feels no need to ‘inform’ or highlight disability as a piece of data. In the end, that reflects onto everyone else.

Saša Asentić: While you’re speaking, I have to quote Dalibor Šandor, who in his performance lecture says… Dalibor, remind me … “that your disability only makes your personality more interesting.”

Dalibor Šandor (from the audience): Yes, that’s what I say.

Milesa Milinković: And that is what we call disability culture. This performance, Dalibor’s performance, all of that belongs to disability culture, where at some point disabled people began to think of disability as a source of different, meaningful, and valuable experiences.
That’s what happened to me at some point... how I reshaped my own identity. From being “I am disabled,” then after years of activism that identity slid to the bottom of my list. And now “woman with a disability” is my first identity, and I’m deeply proud of it. I think that being a disabled woman, everything I’ve lived through, and the way I was raised and treated by my family and community as a disabled woman... all of that led me to insights my sister, who grew up in the same home, doesn’t have. She doesn’t have that identity or that lived experience. That’s exactly what disability culture is, developing since the 1950s and 60s, disabled people celebrating their experiences and seeing disability as something that shapes them in a positive way.

Saša Asentić: Yes. And unlike the medical or the social model, the cultural model comes from disabled people themselves...

Milesa Milinković: Exactly.

Saša Asentić: And that is... I must say, especially important to me when we return to the question of politics. In Per.Art, because of our approach and the principles and conditions we build, we have colleagues and artworks that articulate this disability culture. Not only those that criticize other models, which is also very important, the medical model, the social model, and so on.
This is a very important aspect that comes only after many years of continuous work. We couldn’t talk about this 20 years ago, because we had to fight, just like you described in your personal story, for where disability was positioned when you presented yourself, in work and in public. We, as a group, went through something similar. Our understanding of disability, of our relationships, and of allyship grew and eventually led us toward this cultural model.

Milesa Milinković: It’s interesting... I’m wondering whether it was everything I read that brought me toward the cultural model, or whether it’s something I just lived. Disability culture, as a term, is actually new to me, something I’ve read about only recently... but I’ve been living it. So, through my work and knowledge I came to it intuitively, and then thought: “Wait, there’s a whole theory about this!” The same thing happened with feminist disability theory during my master’s studies. I thought, “Wow, this is my lived experience as a woman.” The cultural model is what disabled people create, their own representation. I found this title: How to Be Useful the Way We Already Are. Not to fit into known molds, but to contribute as we are...

Saša Asentić: What you just said brings us back to the idea that the personal is political, and to the question of lived experience. And again, to the question of power: who gets to establish theory and define experience, and raise it to the level of theory? That is always a question of power.
When you describe the moment you recognized yourself in feminist theory or in disability culture “Yes, that’s me.” I find it very interesting to think about how lived experiences remain ignored until someone begins reading, or connects with people who have knowledge that someone, for whatever reason, had the power to articulate earlier. Meanwhile many others whose lives the theory refers to are left out... That disconnect between theory and practice fascinates me. 

Milesa Milinković: Yes. And as you said earlier, disability is also a story about class... When we talk about disabled people, we must always remember that some have access to resources, and others don’t.

Saša Asentić: Exactly.

Milesa Milinković: I often say I was lucky to have access to certain resources. Family is a resource too, a family that shapes you in one way or another, that views disability in one way or another. Jelena was perhaps lucky to meet you.

Saša Asentić: And we were lucky to meet her.

Jelena Stefanoska: Yes.

Milesa Milinković: I say this as a disabled person. But on the other hand, so many things are inaccessible to others... When people mention Nick Vujičić, I say he wouldn’t be who he is if he had been born in Serbia.

Saša Asentić: Yes, that usually turns out to be a class issue.

Milesa Milinković: Exactly. And among us disabled people, there are those who have resources, as I do now, and those who don’t... I was lucky again to be in those master’s studies, to have professors who knew feminist disability theory and introduced me to it. Honestly, if that hadn’t happened, there’s a good chance feminist disability theory wouldn’t have entered the narrative (inaudible) in Serbia. Just like without Per.Art... I don’t know if anyone else would have... Obviously not, because someone else would already be doing it if they were. That's why Jelena is unique...

Saša Asentić: We really got carried away talking, Milesa and I, and you all listened so kindly. Maybe we should open the floor a bit for impressions, comments, questions. Then we can come back to our chat later... I tried to connect what I was thinking about while listening to you with what we’ve done with Jelena and Dalibor. We also invited Sneža because she has been part of some of our other performances where we dealt with women’s rights, especially in Pina Bausch’s Kontakthof. There, we analysed what kind of society we live in, what happens inside that society, a patriarchal society where men dominate, and so on. And even though Giselle is Jelena’s work and Jelena’s ideas, we thought it was good to gather like this because of the whole story of fighting for women’s rights and the rights of women with disabilities. If anyone has a comment about what we’ve been talking about or what you’ve heard?

Snježana Bulatović (from the audience): That woman doesn’t allow that man to come and tell her, “Stop, you don’t have the right to speak, I do.” And now she turns it around and says, “You can’t talk about me. You have no right. That’s where it stops. You can’t go on endlessly talking about me as if I’m something I’m not...”

Saša Asentić: Something that isn’t true.

Snježana Bulatović: ...that isn’t true at all. I have the right to speak, at least one word.

Saša Asentić: I agree.

Snježana Bulatović: I’m that woman who has the right to speak. I will show myself in theatre, in books, on television, on camera. I won’t be thrown somewhere in the corner.

Saša Asentić: I agree, that’s exactly the struggle.

Snježana Bulatović: I’m not letting anyone treat me however they want. That’s not how it goes.

Saša Asentić: I agree, that’s the very fight we’re talking about. What I find interesting is this, the other day when Nataša, Jelena, you and I met, we were talking and then at some point we all fell silent, sitting at the table drinking tea and water. And then, Sneža, you said, “You know what I thought to myself, I’m going to say it out loud now.” And I said, “Go ahead, say it.” And you said something very similar to what you’re saying now, that you have a voice and that your voice needs to be heard.

Snježana Bulatović: To be heard. To spread.

Saša Asentić: To spread. And that really struck me, and I told you, “Look how interesting this is”, you felt...

Snježana Bulatović: The female presence...

Saša Asentić: …the female presence, but also that…

Snježana Bulatović: …that doesn’t let anyone walk over her…

Saša Asentić: …that doesn’t let anyone walk over her…

Snježana Bulatović: The voice spreads everywhere. Women need to keep their strength...

Saša Asentić: To keep their strength. But what was also interesting is that you released that voice...

Snežana Bulatović: …let it spread everywhere…

Saša Asentić: …and didn’t leave it inside, in silence.

Snježana Bulatović: …not in silence… but let it spread everywhere. To all the women in the world. I recommend that their voices be heard everywhere. And not that they stay quiet and hide…

Saša Asentić: I completely agree with you, I would only add that since the world we live in still has so much violence against women, for some women it’s dangerous to raise their voice. And that’s why we all need to work to ensure their safety, to create safe conditions so that those who are endangered can speak out. Because sometimes when you raise your voice, it can be…

Snježana Bulatović: I think a lot, and... to put it that way… it can be fatal…

Saša Asentić: …that’s why it’s important to listen to each other carefully and, when we sense danger, to work to make things safe...

Snježana Bulatović: …whatever we’re talking about…

Saša Asentić: …so that the fight for rights can actually be carried out.

Snježana Bulatović: Women’s rights.

Saša Asentić: And so that we know how to help that voice be heard.

Snježana Bulatović: To be heard, for that voice to become steady.

Saša Asentić: Yes. Thank you, Sneža.

Milesa Milinković: Those are safe spaces. Like you said, you were sitting and fell silent... That is a safe space where a woman, a woman with a disability, feels free to speak, to be who she is. We’re back to Giselle again, to expressing yourself... Those are different levels of existence… of the existence of our experiences.

Saša Asentić: Let’s ask, Sneža, whether anyone else has a comment, impression, question? Jelena, did this conversation tonight make sense to you, the one I asked Milesa to join so we could discuss your performances?

Jelena Stefanoska: Yes.

Saša Asentić: It made sense?

Jelena Stefanoska: It made sense.

Saša Asentić: Good, I’m glad. Honestly, I didn’t even ask you, I just thought this idea matters to me, and I like it (laughter from the audience), so I’ll ask Milesa. I didn’t ask what you thought about it. I did it because, in the spirit of everything we’ve been trying to do together with Nataša, Olivera, Frosina, Jelena Alempijević, Vesna, and everyone else, we want to spread your story, your idea, and make these performances together. So, I thought, in spreading this wonderful story, there’s no better person than Milesa to join us. And so, I didn’t ask you. But I also saw it as a sort of gift, to you and to all of us. And when you give someone a gift, you don’t ask for permission first (laughter). So, I skipped that part.

Milesa Milinković: It’s interesting… this is a serious production, and there’s probably not much opportunity to perform it often. I really dislike when people see films from the Uhvati film festival and say everyone should see this, schoolchildren, everyone… as if you can just go anywhere and show a performance or screen films, as if it doesn’t require work… This is maybe a more accessible way to spread these messages at a certain level. And I see this as an academic level, you and I reflecting on the theory… And then a level for a different audience. It also allows the performance to change.

Saša Asentić: Yes, yes.

Milesa Milinković: Or the messages.

Saša Asentić: Right... Do you have any more questions for me? Actually, what time is it? Half past seven? That’s actually when we said we’d finish. Time flies… Maybe we should slowly wrap up. Maybe you have a comment or question... or someone from our small circle? If not, then we’ll slowly…

Milesa Milinković: Just to say thank you. Not only because you included me in this process… I truly feel a deep sense of gratitude to you all at Per.Art for your contribution to the art scene and, since I’m not an artist but an activist, for your contribution to the disability rights movement…

Saša Asentić: Thank you as well because, like I said at the beginning, I feel we are all one small community. And as you pointed out with that Massimo song, it really describes us who share this sense of alliance... I believe it’s important to nurture that. And that sense of gratitude that grows out of our relationships and shared experiences is what makes it meaningful and helps us persist, not anything else. Thank you, Milesa. Thank you all (applause). And of course, thank you to Jelena, from whose idea everything began.

(Applause)